Runtime 17:08
15a
{Beitza 28a resumes}
וחכמים אומרים אין משגיחין בכף מאזנים כל עיקר
מאי כל עיקר א"ר יהודה אמר שמואל אפי' לשמרו מן העכברים
אמר רב אידי בר אבין והוא דתליא בתריטא מפני שנראה כשוקל בשר ביו"ט
והא דר' חייא ור"ש ברבי דהוו שקלי מנה כנגד מנה ביו"ט לא קיימא לן כוותייהו אלא כרבנן דאמרי אין משגיחין בכף מאזנים כל עיקר
אמר רב אידי בר אבין והוא דתליא בתריטא מפני שנראה כשוקל בשר ביו"ט
"And the Sages say: We may not use a scale at all":
What is meant by "at all?"
Rav Yehuda cited Shmuel: {Meat cannot be placed on a scale} Even to guard it from mice.
Rav Iddi bar Avin said: And this is where it {the scale} is suspended from the ring, for it appears as if he it weighing meat on Yom Tov.
What is meant by "at all?"
Rav Yehuda cited Shmuel: {Meat cannot be placed on a scale} Even to guard it from mice.
Rav Iddi bar Avin said: And this is where it {the scale} is suspended from the ring, for it appears as if he it weighing meat on Yom Tov.
והא דר' חייא ור"ש ברבי דהוו שקלי מנה כנגד מנה ביו"ט לא קיימא לן כוותייהו אלא כרבנן דאמרי אין משגיחין בכף מאזנים כל עיקר
And this that Rabbi Chiyya and Rabbi Shimon son of Rabbi weighed a portion {of meat} against another portion on Yom Tov, we do not establish like them, but rather like the Sages who say that we may not use a scale at all.
אמר ר' יהודה אמר שמואל טבח אומן אסור לשקול בשר ביד
ואמר ר' יהודה אמר שמואל אסור לשקול בשר במים
אמר רב חייא בר אשי אמר רב אסור לעשות בית יד בבשר
אמר רבינא וביד שפיר דמי
אמר רב הונא מותר לעשות סימן בבשר כי הא דרבה בר רב הונא מחתך לה אתלת קרנתא
ואמר ר' יהודה אמר שמואל אסור לשקול בשר במים
אמר רב חייא בר אשי אמר רב אסור לעשות בית יד בבשר
אמר רבינא וביד שפיר דמי
אמר רב הונא מותר לעשות סימן בבשר כי הא דרבה בר רב הונא מחתך לה אתלת קרנתא
Rav Yehuda cited Shmuel: A professional butcher, it is forbidden for him to weigh meat in his hand {for he has an exceptional sense of the weight of meat}.
And Rav Yehuda cited Shmuel: It is forbidden to weigh meat in water {by seeing how much water is displaced, or how much it rises}.
Rav Chiyya bar Ashi cited Rav: It is forbidden to make a handle in a piece of meat {by cutting a hold in it for the customer to hold onto as he carries it home}.
Ravina said: But by hand it is fine {to make such a hole}.
Rav Huna said: It is permitted to make an identifying mark in meat, just as Rabba bar Rav Huna would cut into triangular pieces.
Mishna:
And Rav Yehuda cited Shmuel: It is forbidden to weigh meat in water {by seeing how much water is displaced, or how much it rises}.
Rav Chiyya bar Ashi cited Rav: It is forbidden to make a handle in a piece of meat {by cutting a hold in it for the customer to hold onto as he carries it home}.
Ravina said: But by hand it is fine {to make such a hole}.
Rav Huna said: It is permitted to make an identifying mark in meat, just as Rabba bar Rav Huna would cut into triangular pieces.
Mishna:
אין משחיזין את הסכין ביו"ט אבל משיאה ע"ג חברתה
לא יאמר אדם לטבח שקול לי בדינר בשר אבל שוחטין ומחלקין ביניהן
לא יאמר אדם לטבח שקול לי בדינר בשר אבל שוחטין ומחלקין ביניהן
We may not sharpen a knife {in its normal way} on Yom Tov, but we may scrape it against its fellow {knife}.
{Beitza 28b}
A person should not say to the butcher, "weigh for me a dinar's worth of meat, but they {our gemara: "he" = the butcher} may slaughter and divide among them.
{Beitza 28b}
A person should not say to the butcher, "weigh for me a dinar's worth of meat, but they {our gemara: "he" = the butcher} may slaughter and divide among them.
{Beitza 28a}
Gemara:
מאן תנא דהשחזה עצמה אסורה
א"ר חסדא דלא כר' יהודה
דתניא אין בין יום טוב לשבת אלא צורך אוכל נפש בלבד ור' יהודה מתיר במכשירי אוכל נפש
א"ל רבא לרב חסדא דרשי' משמך הלכה כר' יהודה
אמר ליה יהא רעוא דכל הני מילי מעלייתא תדרשון משמי
Who is the Tanna that haschaza {sharpening} itself {our gemara, rather: debmashchezet - with a sharpening tool} is forbidden?
Rav Chisda said: Not in accordance with Rabbi Yehuda.
For we learnt {in a brayta}: There is no difference between Yom Tov and Shabbat except ochel nefesh {the requirements for food}. And Rabbi Yehuda permits {even} by preliminaries of ochel nefesh. {And sharpening would be machshirei ochel nefesh.}
Rava said to Rav Chisda: Shall we expound in your name that the halacha is like Rabbi Yehuda?
He {=Rav Chisda} said: May it be {Hashem's} will that all these excellent matters are expounded in my name.
Rav Chisda said: Not in accordance with Rabbi Yehuda.
For we learnt {in a brayta}: There is no difference between Yom Tov and Shabbat except ochel nefesh {the requirements for food}. And Rabbi Yehuda permits {even} by preliminaries of ochel nefesh. {And sharpening would be machshirei ochel nefesh.}
Rava said to Rav Chisda: Shall we expound in your name that the halacha is like Rabbi Yehuda?
He {=Rav Chisda} said: May it be {Hashem's} will that all these excellent matters are expounded in my name.
אמר רב נחמיה בריה דרב יוסף הוה קאימנא קמיה דרבא
והוה קא מעבר סכינא אפומא דדיקלא
ואמינא ליה לחדודי בעי מר או לעבורי שמנינותא
ואמר לי לעבורי שמנינותא
וחזיתיה לדעתיה דלחדודיה קא עביד
והאי דלא קאמר לי דקא סבר הלכה ואין מורין כן
Rav Nechemia son of Rav Yosef said: I was standing before Rava,
{Beitza 28b}
and he was passing a knife over the rim of a basket.
And I said to him, "to sharpen it do you desire or to remove the residue?"
And he said to me, "to remove the residue."
And I saw that his intent was actually to sharpen it, and this that he did not tell me so was because he held that this was halacha, but we do not rule this way {for the public}.
{Beitza 28b}
and he was passing a knife over the rim of a basket.
And I said to him, "to sharpen it do you desire or to remove the residue?"
And he said to me, "to remove the residue."
And I saw that his intent was actually to sharpen it, and this that he did not tell me so was because he held that this was halacha, but we do not rule this way {for the public}.
אמר אביי הוה קאימנא קמיה דמר והוה קא מעבר סכינא אפומא דריחיא ואמרי ליה לחדודי קא בעי מר או להעביר שמנינותא
ואמר לי להעביר שמנינותא וחזיתיה לדעתיה דלחדודיה קא בעי וקסבר הלכה ואין מורין כן
Abaye said: I was standing before Master {=Rabba; apparently, as Artscroll points out, Rashba's girsa is explicitly Rav Yosef, though} and he was passing a knife over the edge of a millstone, and I said to him, "does Master intend to sharpen it or to remove the residue?" And he told me, "to remove the residue," and I saw that his intent was actually to sharpen it, and he held that this was halacha but we do not rule this way {for the public}.
ואמר רבא סכין שעמדה מותר לחדדה ביום טוב
וה"מ דפסקה אגב דוחקא ודוקא אגב
And Rava {our gemara: Rav Yosef} said: A knife which became dull {such this is cannot cut in a normal manner}, it is permitted to sharpen it on Yom Tov.
And these words are where it can still cut when subjected to a lot of pressure, and specifically via
15b
{Beitza 28b continues}
ריחיא או אגב דיקלא אבל במשחזת לא
a millstone or a basket {as above}, but via a knife-sharpener {mashchezet}, no.
דרש רב חסדא ואיתימא רב יוסף אחד סכין שנפגמה ואחד שפוד שנרצם ואחד גריפת התנור באנו למחלוקת ר' יהודה ורבנן
דתנן אין בין יו"ט לשבת אלא אוכל נפש בלבד ור"י מתיר במכשירי אוכל נפש
מ"ט דת"ק אמר קרא הוא לבדו יעשה לכם הוא ולא מכשיריו
ור' יהודה אמר לך אמר קרא לכם לכל צרכיכם
ורבנן ההוא מיבעי ליה לכם ולא לכותים (לכם ולא לכלבים)
ורבי יהודה הא כתיב הוא אמר לך כתיב הוא וכתיב לכם
ולא קשיא כאן במכשירין שאיפשר לעשותן מעיו"ט וכאן במכשירין שאי אפשר לעשותן מעיו"ט
Rav Chisda expounded, and some say it was Rav Yosef {yud vav can look like a ח}: Either a knife that became nicked, or a spit whose tip broke off, or the shoveling out of an oven or stove {on Yom Tov}, he have come to the dispute of Rabbi Yehuda and the Sages.
For they learnt {tnan -- our gemara: tanya}: There is no difference between Yom Tov and Shabbat except for ochel nefesh {i.e. labor is permitted for preparing food}. And Rabbi Yehuda permits for the preliminaries of ochel nefesh.
What is the reason of the Tanna Kamma? {Shemot 12:16}:
And Rabbi Yehuda: The verse states לכם - for you = for all your needs {including preliminaries}.
And the Sages: That {namely לכם} is required {for another derasha} for you {Israelites} and not Cutheans (*, you and not for dogs) {this not present in our gemara -- it would seem to rely on the earlier dispute of Rabbi Yossi haGelili and Rabbi Akiva; the issue is labor for ochel nefesh on behalf of someone or something not commanded to enjoy Yom Tov.}
And Rabbi Yehuda: But it states הוא {to restrict}, and it states לכם {to expand}.
And it is no contradiction. Here {where we restrict} is by preliminaries which it is possible to do from erev Yom Tov, and here {where we encompass} is by preliminaries which is impossible to do from erev Yom Tov.
For they learnt {tnan -- our gemara: tanya}: There is no difference between Yom Tov and Shabbat except for ochel nefesh {i.e. labor is permitted for preparing food}. And Rabbi Yehuda permits for the preliminaries of ochel nefesh.
What is the reason of the Tanna Kamma? {Shemot 12:16}:
And Rabbi Yehuda: The verse states לכם - for you = for all your needs {including preliminaries}.
And the Sages: That {namely לכם} is required {for another derasha} for you {Israelites} and not Cutheans (*, you and not for dogs) {this not present in our gemara -- it would seem to rely on the earlier dispute of Rabbi Yossi haGelili and Rabbi Akiva; the issue is labor for ochel nefesh on behalf of someone or something not commanded to enjoy Yom Tov.}
And Rabbi Yehuda: But it states הוא {to restrict}, and it states לכם {to expand}.
And it is no contradiction. Here {where we restrict} is by preliminaries which it is possible to do from erev Yom Tov, and here {where we encompass} is by preliminaries which is impossible to do from erev Yom Tov.
איבעיא להו מהו להראות סכין לחכם
רב מרי בריה דרב איקא שרי ורבנן אסרי
ופי' בעל הלכות גדולות טעמא דמילתא דחיישינן דילמא אזלי חוץ לתחום לאחוויי
It was a question to them: May one show a knife to an expert {on Yom Tov to see whether it has a nick which would invalidate shechita.}
Rav Mari son of Rav Ika permits and the Sages forbid.
And the Baal Halachot Gedolot explains that the reason for the matter {of the prohibition} is that we worry lest he go outside of the techum to show it.
{And see Ran for a discussion of this, given that it appears to be a gezeira to protect techum which we hold itself is derabbanan.}
Rav Mari son of Rav Ika permits and the Sages forbid.
And the Baal Halachot Gedolot explains that the reason for the matter {of the prohibition} is that we worry lest he go outside of the techum to show it.
{And see Ran for a discussion of this, given that it appears to be a gezeira to protect techum which we hold itself is derabbanan.}
אמר רב יוסף ת"ח רואה לעצמו ומשאילה לאחרים
Rav Yosef said: A Torah scholar may inspect it himself, and lend it to others.
אמר ר' יהודה אמר שמואל שפוד שנרצף אסור לתקנו ביו"ט ואע"ג דפשיט ליה בידיה
ואמר רב יהודה אמר שמואל שפוד שצלו בו בשר אסור לטלטלו ביום טוב
רב מלכיו ואיתימא רב אדא בר אהבה אמר שומטו ומניחו בקרן זויות
א"ר חייא בר אשי א"ר הונא והוא שיש עליו כזית בשר
רבינא אמר אפילו אין עליו כזית בשר שרי מידי דהוה אקוץ בר"ה
וקיימא לן כרבינא
Rav Yehuda cited Shmuel: A spit which became bent, it is forbidden to fix it on Yom Tov, even though it can be straightened with his hand.
And Rav Yehuda cited Shmuel: A spit which was used to roast meat {on Yom Tov}, it is forbidden to move it on Yom Tov {assuming no more meat is needed to be roasted}.
Rav Malkiyo, and some say Rav Adda bar Ahava said {our gemara: Rav Adda bar Ahava cited Rav Malkiyo; on that gemara, Bach emends, inverting it to match other gemaras: Rav Malkiyo cited Rav Adda bar Ahava}: He may remove it and place it in a corner.
Rav Chiyya bar Ashi cited Rav Huna: And this is where it still has an olive's measure of meat upon it.
Ravina said: Even if it does not have an olive's measure of meat upon it, it is permitted, just as is true regarding a thorn in the public domain {which one may move because of the danger posed by it}.
And we establish like Ravina.
And Rav Yehuda cited Shmuel: A spit which was used to roast meat {on Yom Tov}, it is forbidden to move it on Yom Tov {assuming no more meat is needed to be roasted}.
Rav Malkiyo, and some say Rav Adda bar Ahava said {our gemara: Rav Adda bar Ahava cited Rav Malkiyo; on that gemara, Bach emends, inverting it to match other gemaras: Rav Malkiyo cited Rav Adda bar Ahava}: He may remove it and place it in a corner.
Rav Chiyya bar Ashi cited Rav Huna: And this is where it still has an olive's measure of meat upon it.
Ravina said: Even if it does not have an olive's measure of meat upon it, it is permitted, just as is true regarding a thorn in the public domain {which one may move because of the danger posed by it}.
And we establish like Ravina.
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