Sunday, July 19, 2009

Rif Bava Kamma 39a {112a-b}


{Bava Kamma 112a}
אמר רבא הניח להן אביהן פרה שאולה משתמשין בה כל ימי שאלתה
מתה אין חייבין באונסיה
כסבורין הן של אביהן היא טבחוה ואכלוה משלמין דמי בשר בזול וכו' כדכתבנוה בכתובות בפרק אלו נערות
Rava said: If their father left them a cow which was borrowed by him, they may use it until the expiration of the period for which it was borrowed, though if it [meanwhile] died they would not be liable for the accident.
If they were under the impression that it was the property of their father, and so slaughtered it and consumed it, they would have to pay for the value of meat at the cheapest price, etc., as we have written it in Ketubot, in perek Elu Naarot.

ת"ר והשיב את הגזלה מה ת"ל אשר גזל
יחזיר כעין שגזל ומכאן אמרו הגוזל ומאכיל את בניו פטורין מלשלם
והמניח לפניהן בין גדולים בין קטנים חייבין
משום סומכוס אמרו גדולים חייבין קטנים פטורים:
The Sages learnt {in a brayta}: {Vayikra 5:23}:
כג וְהָיָה, כִּי-יֶחֱטָא וְאָשֵׁם--וְהֵשִׁיב אֶת-הַגְּזֵלָה אֲשֶׁר גָּזָל אוֹ אֶת-הָעֹשֶׁק אֲשֶׁר עָשָׁק, אוֹ אֶת-הַפִּקָּדוֹן אֲשֶׁר הָפְקַד אִתּוֹ; אוֹ אֶת-הָאֲבֵדָה, אֲשֶׁר מָצָא. 23 then it shall be, if he hath sinned, and is guilty, that he shall restore the theft which he took by robbery, or the thing which he hath gotten by oppression, or the deposit which was deposited with him, or the lost thing which he found,
What does it come to inform us with אֲשֶׁר גָּזָל, "which he took by robbery"? That he should return it when it is in he same form as what he stole. And from here they said that one who stole and fed his sons, they are exempt from paying; and if he left it to them {as an inheritance}, whether they are adults or minors, they are obligated. In the name of Sumchus they said that adults are obligated and minors are exempt.

בר חמוה דרבי ירמיה טרק גלי באפי דרבי ירמיה
אתא לקמיה דרבי אבא אמר ליה שלו הוא תובע
א"ל והא מייתינא סהדי דאחזקי בה בחיי אבוה
אמר ליה וכי מקבלין עדים שלא בפני בעל דין
א"ל והתניא בין גדולים בין קטנים חייבין
אמר ליה הרי מחלוקתך בצדך משום סומכום אמרו גדולים חייבין קטנים פטורים
אמר איכפל עלמא וקאי כסומכוס לאפקועי לדידי

The {minor} son of the father-in-law of Rabbi Yirmeyah bolted the door in the face of Rabbi Yirmeyah {who wanted to take possession of the premises}.
He came before Rabbi Abba. He said to him: He was merely asserting his right to his own.
He {=Rabbi Yirmeyah} said to him: I can bring witnesses to testify that I took possession of the premises during the lifetime of the father.

{Bava Kamma 112b}
He {=Rabbi Abba} said to him: Can the evidence of witnesses be accepted {Bava Kamma 112b} where the other party is not present?
He {=Rabbi Yirmeyah} said to him: But they learnt {in a brayta}: "Whether adults or minors they would be liable."
He {=Rabbi Abba} said to him: Is not the divergent view at your side? "In the name of Sumchus they said that adults are obligated and minors are exempt."
He {=Rabbi Yirmeyah} said to him: Has the whole world doubled itself {=decided} like Sumchus in order to deprive me of my property?

איגלגל מלתא ומטא לקמיה דרבי אבהו
אמר ליה לא שמיע לכו הא דאמר רב חמא בר יוסף א"ר אושעיא
תינוק שתקף בעבדיו וירד לתוך שדה חבירו ואמר שלי היא אין אומרים נמתין לו עד שיגדיל אלא מוציאין אותה מידו ולכשיגדיל אם יש לו עדים יביא ראיה ונראה
מי דמי התם הוא דלא קיימא בחזקה דאבוה אבל הכא דקיימא בחזקה דאבוה לא:
Meanwhile the matter was referred from one to another until it arrived before Rabbi Abahu. He {=Rabbi Abahu} said to him: Have you not heard of what Rav Chama bar Yosef said in the name ofRabbi Oshaya? If a minor collected his slaves and took possession of another person's field claiming that it was his, we do not say, Let us wait till he come of age, but we wrest it from him forthwith and when he comes of age he can bring forward witnesses {to support his allegation} and then we will consider the matter.
But is it really comparable? There, he had no presumptive title to it from his father, but here, where he has such a presumptive title from his father, no.

אמר רבי אסי אמר רבי שבתי מקבלין עדים שלא בפני בעל דין
תהי בה רבי יוחנן וכי מקבלין עדים שלא בפני בעל דין
קיבלה מיניה רבי יוסי בר חנינא כגון שהיה הוא חולה או עדיו חולים
שהיו עדיו מבקשין לילך למדינת הים ושלחו לו ולא בא:
Rabbi Assi cited Rabbi Shabtai: We accept the testimony of witnesses even not in the presence of the litigant.
Rabbi Yochanan reacted to this in surprise: Do we indeed accept witnesses not in the presence of witnesses?
Rabbi Yossi bar Chanina accepted from him {this ruling} in such a situation as where he was ill, or his witnesses were ill; that his witnesses wished to travel to an overseas country, and they sent for him and he did not come.

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